- Note: The following article was original posted on my old blogsite on Nov. 21, 2012. It’s being reported in light of the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas terrorists in the Middle East.
The Libertarians may be for a free market and limited government, but when it comes to foreign policy and self-defense war, they are as myopic, immoral, and evil as the liberals and leftists. The Libertarians claim to be the champions of liberty and freedom without properly understanding that such ideals must be defended not merely against political, statist intrusion, but also against foreign threats and invasion.
The problem with the Libertarians is that they tend to think purely in terms of ‘economics.’ Most Libertarians (notice the capital ‘L’: they’re members of the Libertarian Party) believe that statism can only be solved by economic education. They believe that the statists advocate and promote socialistic programs and measures because of their ignorance of economics.
In the minds of the Libertarians who obviously pay lip-service to liberty and capitalism, the root cause of the world’s crisis lies mainly in the people’s lack of economic education, and the only way to solve this problem is to teach the people proper economic knowledge. I strongly do not agree with this worldview. People embrace destructive socialistic economic measures simply because they embrace collectivism. In some cases, people commit suicide bombings and acts of terrorism not because of poverty and economic ills, but mainly because they embrace a totalitarian religious ideology.
I’ve met a number of dogmatic Libertarians who told me that all wars were motivated by economic gains or factors. They naively believe that Nazi Germany, for example, was engaged in a global war because of their economic condition. A few Filipino Libertarians told me the Islamic secessionist rebels in Mindanao have been waging a war of attrition against the Philippine government and carrying out a series of terrorist activities against innocent civilians because they’re victims of ‘massive land-grabbing’ and economic crimes by the kafirs or infidels. These same Libertarian ideologues also told me Palestinians in the Middle East have resorted to terrorism and military conflict because they’re victims of ‘land-grabbing’ by the people of Israel. Bad economic conditions and mindset, they claim, turn men into monsters.
I say, rubbish!
I was engaged in a heated Facebook debate with a Filipino Libertarian living in the United States regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict. This Libertarian named Warlito Nobleza Vicente, owner and webmaster of Antipinoy.com, posted his own assessment of the current issue: “Israel vs. Palestine… corporate welfare state versus social welfare state… statism leads to war…”
I made the following comment:
“While I agree that statism leads to war, it is always the most statist state that starts war. There is no moral equivalence here. There is the good/moral side and the bad side here. The nation that adheres to peace has all the right to self-defense. Israel is the rightful owner of their territory, and it should not have given up Gaza and the West Bank. Giving up Gaza is one BIG, FATAL mistake Israel did in the past. It simply shows you cannot appease an enemy that’s determined to kill you.
“How would you deal with an enemy state whose Charter clearly states: ‘The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews)’?”
Here’s the actual debate/discussion:
Warlito: “Hamas social welfare state vs. Israeli corporate welfare state… only the military-industrial complex benefits… weapons sold on both sides come from the same companies.”
Vincenton Post: “Israel a corporatist state? Well, America and the Philippines are also corporatist states. Does that mean Israel is no longer entitled to any right to self-defense? Does that mean that a ‘corporatist state’ must not defend itself or retaliate against an invading, hostile enemy that is an absolute totalitarian religious state? Does that mean that only a so-called Libertarian state is entitled to peace? But even so-called Libertarian states can be subject to invasion by fascist expansionist, imperialist states! Man’s history books are full of stories of invasion. That even peaceful states or societies that didn’t want to expand through invasion were victims of invasion.”
Warlito: “There’s more to this picture than meets the eye. Continuous Jewish expansion into the occupied Palestinian territories… the building of new settlements via demolition of existing Palestinian homesteads doesn’t justify self-defense too? War mongering benefits nobody except the military-industrial complex.”
Observe that Warlito’s statement is laced with conspiracy theory and Islamic-leftist propaganda rhetoric: that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territories and that it’s motivated by what he calls ‘military-industrial complex.’ This rhetoric is so popular among both Libertarians and liberals.
Vincenton Post: “Am I right to assume that the Libertarians somehow think, or believe, that since Israel is guilty of ‘statism’ it must forfeit its right to self-defense? That’s since it is a ‘corporate state,’ it is inherently guilty or even guiltier than all its surrounding enemies. ‘Continuous Jewish expansion into the occupied Palestinian territories’… Where did you get that info? That’s a lie.
Warlito: “Not a lie… it’s a fact.”
Vincenton Post: “Let’s get the facts correct. What made you say that Palestinian territories are ‘occupied’ territories? What expansion are you talking about?”
Warlito: “By invading Palestine… Israel helps the Arab tyrants and despots take the heat off the Arab people’s suffering. Military-industrial complex laughing all the way to the bank at civilian expense on both sides.”
Vincenton Post: “Please read proper history books. First, there was no Palestinian state. Invading Palestine? Gaza was formerly occupied by Egypt while the West Bank was formerly occupied by Jordan. Even Jordan and Egypt refused to admit the so-called Palestinian refugees. Stop talking nonsense about your military-industrial complex as if Israel begged to be bombed by the Palestinian savages.”
- Additional note for the reader: Gaza was formerly occupied by Egypt. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip, while Jordan occupied the West Bank. This situation persisted until the 1967 Six-Day War when Israel captured these territories.
‘Expanding Jewish settlements in occupied territories’?
I’ve given you ALL THE FACTS. You simply try to ignore them. You keep on repeating that LIE. How did the Israelis try to expand their territories? Are you saying Gaza and West Bank were formerly PLO territories? What territories?
Give me FACTS!
Warlito: “Were Gaza and West Bank Jewish settlements before? No, they were not. Who were the people in actual possession of these territories before the Israeli occupation? Jews? No, they were not. Was there a modern state called Palestine during that time. None because the UN didn’t create one. Should the UN have created one at the same time it created Israel. Yes. The Israeli-Palestinian question is bigger than territorial conflict. What lies at its core is blowback. Yes, the territories were occupied by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Does occupation by Israel make it any less wrong? It’s one thing to be an occupation force. It’s another thing to be in actual possession of the land that occupation forces claim as their own. Foreign intervention always winds up with blowback no matter the intentions.”
Vincenton Post: “You seem to dishonestly forget there were Jewish people there even during the 500-year rule of the Ottoman Empire. First, there was no Palestinian state before 1947 and 1917. Second, Israel, Jordan, Palestine, and others were created by the WW1 victors out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Third, you’re WRONG in all respects. So, stop saying Israel is merely ‘occupying’ a state. If that’s the case, then Jordan, Palestine, and others are also ‘occupiers.’ Also, the so-called Arab refugees were victims of the Arabs themselves. Some of them came from Darfur. Some hundreds of thousands were ABSORBED by Israel. What did the Arab nations do? They drove those refugees away. What did the UNRWA do? It simply tries to perpetuate the refugee status of those Arab refugees. Did you know that those refugees are NOT allowed to acquire citizenship? Again, get the facts correct.”
‘Yes, the territories were occupied by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Does occupation by Israel make it any less wrong.’
“First, stop blaming Israel. It’s NOT Israel’s fault. It’s the Arab Nation’s fault. In 1947, Jordan and Egypt tried to invade Israel. That war created refugees. Like I said, some of them were welcomed by Israel, while the Arab world rejected them, denying them rights.
“Again, WHAT OCCUPATION BY ISRAEL? Tell me exactly.”
‘Foreign intervention always winds up with blowback no matter the intentions.’
“What the HECK IS WRONG WITH YOU? That foreign intervention is NOT Israel’s fault!
“Remember that it’s already part of history. People are trying to deal with the consequences of what had transpired in the past. People today had nothing to do with what happened in 1917. It’s not the fault of the Israelis that the Ottoman Empire joined other nations to wage the first world war and lost.”
Warlito then proceeded to give me what he called ‘facts.’ He copy-pasted passages from an online article written by an unknown Internet scribbler/propagandist. The online article is about the origin of Palestine: ‘Starting Point- When it was Palestine.’
My reply: “ARE YOU SAYING THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE DID NOT EXIST? Are you saying Egypt, Jordan, and other countries in that area were all previously owned by the Palestinians? Your source simply tries to tell people the period ranging from 1500 – 1917 did not exist. I can tell you the Jews also lived there for more than 2,000 years as evidenced by history and archaeological artifacts.”
Warlito replied by copy-pasting an excerpt of an online article titled ‘The Balfour Declaration and its Consequences’ by an Arab writer named Avi Shlaim.
My reply: “According to your source, since the 7th century, all empires and countries that occupied NOT only today’s Palestine and Israel, but most of the Arab world, were all ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS. The Ottoman Empire was an illegal occupier. Also, according to your info, all nations in the ME today are ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS. SO, WHY SINGLE OUT ISRAEL? Jordan and Palestine were also created by the British.”
Again, Warlito copy-pasted another online article titled ‘The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict’ from a pro-Palestine and anti-Israel website.
Warlito also gave Mahatma Ghandi’s opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict by quoting passages from this site. Plus passages from this site as well as this Wikipedia article about the history of Palestine.
The main problem with Warlito’s copy-pasta is that they’re all opinions and biased propaganda. They’re not facts! That’s why I said: “COPY-PASTA without proper understanding will never work…” Warlito retorted by saying “your sense of history starts with 1917… my copy pasta is earlier than 1917… deal with it.”
Hilarious!
I reminded him that all his sources claim the Jews NEVER EXISTED in the past. That they’re all Islamic/liberal propaganda.
I also reminded him that the only issue is as follows: Was there a pre-existing STATE OF PALESTINE before 1947 and 1917? Because before 1917, those areas were part of the Ottoman Empire.
I proceeded to give Warlito a very short lecture on the history of the world.
I posted the following comment:
Well, that’s how the world works. One day you’d understand that this planet existed for billions of years, and countless of societies, tribes, empires, and nations perished and were replaced by new ones. That process continued for thousands of years.
There were Jewish lands over 2000 years ago. There was also the Sumerian empire, which was replaced by new empires. The Egyptian empire also perished after the death of Cleopatra. The empire of Alexander the Great that conquered nearly half of the world also perished with him.
Over 500 years ago, the Ottoman empire ruled most of the Middle East region. That’s part of history, although we know there was a Jewish land before it.
As history shows, the Ottoman empire ended in 1917. It is WRONG and IDIOTIC to directly connect the very distant past (over 2000 years) with what’s happening today.
Unfortunately, your failed arguments are almost the same as your pro-Mindanao argument.
Let’s deal only with the known and recent facts:
FACT 1: There was no pre-existing entity known as a Palestinian State.
FACT 2: All the lands and territories in question were all part of the Ottoman empire that perished in 1917. The Ottoman empire ruled and became a world order since 1453. That was the WORLD ORDER during that era. If you deny that, there must be something wrong with your head.
FACT 3: Some ME countries that comprise the defunct Ottoman territory today include Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Libya, Tunisia, Malta, Egypt, among many others.
Based on your argument, Warlito Nobleza Vicente, all of these countries are occupiers.
Plus, there is a BIG difference between the so-called Palestinian people and the Palestinian State.
Let me try to inform you that there were also Jewish people who lived in those territories in question for hundreds of years.
Here’s the difference:
A STATE may DIE or PERISH through invasion. A STATE may be replaced by another STATE or ANNEXED by an INVADING STATE. The people don’t. They may stay or migrate.
Warlito’s final reply is as follows:
The states in the territories mentioned are indigenous and already were in possession of territory.
In contrast, the Palestinians were systematically dispossessed and stripped of political rights.
For short, Israel is facing a backlash due to its landgrab. The Jewish people in said territories lived peacefully with the Arabs… until the Zionists came, and the rest is history
My final reply:
You should understand that the Jews also had their Jewish land over 2000 years ago and that they were expelled from their native land. It’s as if you’re trying to tell me the Jews did not exist at all. That they never had a Jewish land in the past. So where did they come from then? If that’s what you’re trying to imply, then you need to re-write history just like what the Islamists have been trying to do for years.
Warlito: ‘In contrast, the Palestinians were systematically dispossessed and stripped of political rights.’
So were the Jews! My goodness! There’s something wrong with you, Warlito. Your dishonesty is actually disturbing. I don’t think I need to elaborate on how the Jews were dispossessed, oppressed, and massacred in the past, repeatedly by the Muslims.
“For short,
Israel is facing a backlash due to its landgrab. The Jewish people in said territories lived peacefully with the Arabs… until the Zionists came, and the rest is history”
Yeah, sure! You believe that Israel is suffering from ‘blowback’ due to a supposed ‘landgrab’ by Jews. That’s funny!
Bottom line is: the same people that belong to the Islamic terrorist group want to annihilate the Jews in that area. They are following the commands in their Hamas charter. Have you ever read the Hamas charter, Warlito?
Vincenton Blog 